Curse

reaper with no name · Sep 16, 2009, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Hasn't been a new dervish thread in a few days, so...

Ok, here's my attempt at bringing back enchantment spam. It's a tall order (since the problem is so complex), so naturally it's a long suggestion involving many changes.

First off, mysticism:

For each rank of mysticism, enchantments you cast cost 6% less energy.

Similar to expertise, but stronger since it only affects enchantments. Note that ideally, a dervish is supposed to be a melee caster, so they'll be splittng attribute points between scythe mastery, mysticism, and one other attribute. And even so, dervishes trying to make use of this will not be swimming in energy (mainly due to the cost of enchantment removal skills).

Now, for PBAoEs to be considered viable, there has to be a reason to use them instead of the alternatives. The standard against which melee AoE can be judged is MSDB (which is capable of 40 armor-ignoring AoE dps). Since MSDB's primary target damage is even greater than it's AoE damage, PBAoEs have to be at least slightly more powerful against AoE targets or else there's simply no point in using them.

Heart of Holy Flame
Grenth's Fingers
Staggering Force
Dust Cloak
Grenth's Aura
Each of these skills will be changed as such: 10 energy cost, 1/2 sec activation, 10 sec recharge, utility effects (blindness, damage conversion, etc) will occur on activation, damage from the AoE will occur on end.

Making the damage occur at the end will encourage stripping. Quicker activation will increase dps.

Zealous Renewal and Balthazar's Rage
Damage will be dealt on ending, and you gain health/energy immediately on hit (rather than all at once when the enchantment ends)

There are caps on the effective energy or health you can gain from these two enchantments (your max energy and health, respectively), limiting their usefulness. Furthermore, they don't give you the energy or health when you need it. This changes that.

Mirage Cloak
recharge becomes 2 sec, energy cost becomes 10, activation time becomes 1/2 sec

Signet of Pious Light and Signet of Pious Restraint
Enchantment Removal effect changed to decrease recharge time by half (instead of instantly recharging skill)

Eremite's Zeal
1/2 sec activation, 6 sec recharge

Nerfing of these three enchantment removal skills may seem counterproductive, but if PBAoE is to be the dervish's specialty, and there are great enchantment stripping skills that don't involve the scythe, then dervishes will simply drop the scythe and bring a staff, becoming pure casters instead of melee casters.

Mystic Sandstorm
Now only removes 1 enchantment, and deals 30...106 earth damage to all nearby foes if one is removed.

Extend Enchantments
Now only removes 1 enchantment on end.

These would be changed because there could be potential balance issues when deep self-enchantment-stripping is combined with the new PBAoEs that all deal damage on end (huge potential spikes possible there).

Contemplation of Purity, Release Enchantments, and Ether Prodigy
Now only removes non-dervish enchantments

"WTF?! These aren't even Dervish skills!"

No, they're not, but currently, they can be used for deep self-enchantment stripping, which under my suggestion could be a problem for the same reasons as Mystic Sandstorm and Extend Enchantments. So, changing them so they don't strip dervish enchantments should fix that. Players using those skills the way Anet intended would notice no change. And in fact, this change could even open new doors build-wise for Monks and Elementalists (since the earth prayers line has so many defensive enchantments, you would now be able to use those enchantment removers without being forced to sacrifice defensive enchantments).

Pious Assault
5 energy, 1/2 activation, 12 recharge
Scythe Attack. Deals +1...26 damage. Removes 1 enchantment. Removal effect: instant recharge

Irresistible Sweep
5 energy, 1/2 activation, 3 recharge
Scythe Attack. Removes 1 enchantment. Removal effect: all adjacent enemies take 15...51 holy damage.

Twin Moon Sweep
1/2 activation, 3 recharge

Lyssa's Assault
5 energy, 1/2 activation, 6 recharge
Scythe Attack. Removes 1 enchantment. Removal effect: gain 4...10 energy.

The faster your enchantment removal skills are, the higher your dps, so each of these get 1/2 sec activations. Each one has certain advantages over the others, and PA can be used while the more powerful ones recharge.

Pious Renewal
Energy gain increased to 0...4

Because the builds that would result from this will need a lot of energy management

Ok, so what would all this do?

Well, most of the PBAoEs will deal about 60 damage (which in HM would be reduced to around 30) and have 1/2 sec activation. A dervish with 12 scythe mastery (I'm assuming a spread of 10+1+1 Scythe, 10+1 Earth or Wind, and 11+1 Mysticism) and AoHM will do 36.73 damage per hit against a 100 AL opponent.

So, with a 1/2 sec activation PBAoE and a 2 sec enchantment removal scythe attack, the dervish would have about 66 dps against the 3 opponents in scythe reach and 30 dps against other targets. In some cases, this would beat MSDB, but not in others (depending on how many opponents there were and how many were in scythe reach). However, there would also be the occasional Holy AoE mixed in (such as from Heart of Holy Flame or Irrestible Sweep) that would add some more damage. This, plus the various utilities of the PBAoE enchantments would make the dervish very desirable as a melee AoE user.

The main weakness that would arise from all this would inevitably be energy. Even with very high mysticism, the sheer speed at which PBAoEs (or, more importantly, the enchantment removal skills, which would end up being the majority of the energy sink) are being spammed could quickly drain a dervish's energy in only a few seconds. Therefore, energy management such as Attacker's Insight, Zealous Renewal (which would now be a decent skill), Lyssa's Assault, or Pious Renewal would be necessary. Plus, since most of the PBAoEs would still have long recharges (Mirage Cloak being the exception, but even it would have a 2 sec downtime), it would be necessary to bring multiple PBAoEs. In other words, like spirit spam, it would take a lot of skill slots to really take advantage of all this.

So, that's it. Feel free to suggest improvements, point out flaws, or just tell me how the whole idea sucks and I should be burned at the stake.

Borat_Best_Player · Sep 16, 2009, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Mysticism is already a redoncilous attribute. No need to buff it...

reaper with no name · Sep 16, 2009, 09:27 PM // 21:27

...

Please do your research. Mysticism is widely known to be one of the worst primary attributes in the game. Critical strikes not only surpasses mysticism in terms of energy management, but also offers a significant combat boost at the same time.

MagmaRed · Sep 16, 2009, 09:45 PM // 21:45

D/N is already a good Orders caster, now you want to make them better. Plus, you'll make D/Mo Protectors quite good with skills like Protective Spirit costing much less and spamming skills like Reversal of Damage simple enough a monky with no hands could do it.

You want to 'fix' Mysticism, but in so doing, you require essentially all other Dervish enchantments to be changed, and any non Dervish skills dealing with enchantments to be looked at closely.

No thanks.

reaper with no name · Sep 16, 2009, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Well, actually, the purpose is to bring back enchantment spam in the form of PBAoEs. The mysticism change is incidental. That said, you may have a point about the D/Mo Protectors and such.

Ok, then, I guess instead of reducing enchantment costs, mysticism would just give back 1 energy per 2 ranks of mysticism on enchantment endings. That would have the same effect for 10 energy enchantments, but only for ones on the dervish themself.

MagmaRed · Sep 17, 2009, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Enchantments that do damage (like you are referring to with the PBAoE) are balanced in their energy cost and their recharge times. To 'spam' them, they would need to have shorter recharges. Unless you want to run AP with them, but that eats up your secondary and elite, so I doubt you'd want that.

I just don't see a major problem with enchantment juggling. Very few enchantments need to be reapplied quickly, and very few builds for a Dervish should be based on nothing but enchantments. Taking 2-4 scythe attacks, 1-2 utility skills, and 1-2 enchantment buffs along with a rez and/or self-heal should be the goal. Anything else isn't playing a melee fighter, its playing a caster in melee range. If that is what you want to do, I don't know that Dervish is the best option.... but that is a different discussion.

eyekwah2 · Sep 17, 2009, 03:10 PM // 15:10

The skill balance is a finely tuned instrument making small and subtle changes where needed and nowhere else. What you're proposing to do is to throw an elephant and a 747 on one side of the scale. /notsigned

Zahr Dalsk · Sep 17, 2009, 03:51 PM // 15:51

/notsigned

Quit bitching, your class does NOT need a buff. In the time you've spent making all these whiny threads, you could have learned to play.

Mesmers need their entire skillset reworked, Ritualists need most of their skills looked at and SP adjusted. Dervishes are fine.

reaper with no name · Sep 17, 2009, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Why don't you try contributing to the discussion like the other posters instead of complaining every time I try to suggest a way to give this class a legitimate reason to be used? Seriously, no one's forcing you to read these threads. The irony is that you accuse me of "bitching" about the class, yet all I've done lately is make suggestions, and now you come in and "bitch" about it without offering any real insight or input.

Also, what's wrong with rits? They're a fun class to play, SP is fine, and they certainly have a lot more useful build combinations than the dervish. Paragons would have been a better example.

Reverend Dr · Sep 17, 2009, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

suggest a way to give this class a legitimate reason to be used?

I had a long post detailing the history of the dervish, how this idea is just begging for a repeat of nightfall beta, and how no one really cares about anyone's skill updates other than the official ones. But instead you are going to answer your own question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

They're a fun class to play

Zahr Dalsk · Sep 17, 2009, 08:47 PM // 20:47

What's wrong with dervishes? They're a fun class to play, mysticism is fine, and they certainly have a lot more useful build combinations than the ritualist. Mesmer would be a better class to buff.

The Drunkard · Sep 17, 2009, 08:49 PM // 20:49

If you didn't already know, stance rangers were the reason why many of the scythe attacks were toned down. What you're proposing is to bring them back with a even faster spike than before.

Although I do like the sig nerf to help stop the stupid d/mo prots, derv enchants are about condition spamming and not damage dealing.

/notsigned

reaper with no name · Sep 18, 2009, 03:31 AM // 03:31

See, here's the problem: the vast majority of conditions out there that dervishes deal are degen, which is nothing more than damage over time. And it's crappy damage.

So, what conditions are there that would actually be meaningful for a dervish to inflict? Ok, there's cracked armor, crippling, weakness (they already have that, and guess what? There's little point in using it when there's skills like SY! around), blindness (again, already have it, still not worth it), and daze (if dervishes started doing that they'd impinge on the ranger's territory). So, are you telling me dervishes should be cracked armor and cripple spammers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

I had a long post detailing the history of the dervish, how this idea is just begging for a repeat of nightfall beta, and how no one really cares about anyone's skill updates other than the official ones. But instead you are going to answer your own question.

You can get just as much fun out of a scythe warrior or scythe sin as a derv. More, actually, since they have far more build options.

From what I've heard, dervishes were definitely overpowered in the beta. However, the game has changed since then. There's been a lot of power creep. That's why these changes seem so powerful; that's what it takes to bring dervishes back into balance (relative to the other professions in PvE, that is).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

What's wrong with dervishes? They're a fun class to play, mysticism is fine, and they certainly have a lot more useful build combinations than the ritualist. Mesmer would be a better class to buff.

Ok, either you don't know much about the ritualist, or your knowledge of dervishes is lacking. The mysticism comment (as well as the fact that I know you like rits) indicates that it must be the latter. Mysticism is a terrible primary attribute. Critical strikes gives better energy management and a combat boost at the same time. And ritualists have far more good build combos than the dervish. Ritualists have offensive spirits, utility/defense spirits, Feast of Souls, spirit walls, SoS, and Splinter Weapon, just to name a few. All of which it does better than anyone else. Dervishes have...Two avatars that are useful in a couple of situations? Other than that, they've got practically nothing going for them.

"Oh, look at me, I can do a decent amount of damage with a scythe!"

Yeah, well a necromancer can do a decent amount of damage with a bow if he wants. It doesn't mean he's "good" at it. Nor does it mean that such a build is worth bringing along, because guess what? Mr ranger does it far better. This is the boat the dervish is in right now.

Mesmers certainly need love too, but at least they have CoP, fast casting nukes, and armor-ignoring damage via hexes and such (monsters are too dumb to stop casting through backfire, for example). That's more than the dervish has going for it.

iTzF3aR · Sep 18, 2009, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Dervishes are fine, you on the other need to learn how to play a dervish.

reaper with no name · Sep 19, 2009, 05:15 PM // 17:15

And how, pray tell, is the dervish supposed to be played?

Damage? Outclassed by warriors and assassins.

Survivability? See above.

Attempting to abuse the mostly useless enchantments they have now? See above.

I mean, I can understand if you don't like this suggestion, but come on now. Let's be realistic here. Just about all of the dervish's skills can be used better by other professions, and due to the class's hybrid nature there isn't much in the way of synergy with secondary professions.

MagmaRed · Sep 19, 2009, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

See, here's the problem: the vast majority of conditions out there that dervishes deal are degen, which is nothing more than damage over time. And it's crappy damage.

Huh? There are only 4 conditions that provide degen. Bleeding, Poison, Disease, and Burning. Dervish can only supply 2 of those. Cripple, Weakness, Blind, Daze, Cracked Armor, and Deep Wound fill in the rest of the conditions availble. Other than the 2 I already mentioned, Dervish can supply all conditions but Cracked Armor and Daze. But I still don't see any skills that SHOULD be spammed that are enchantments for a Dervish. Whether it is to supply a condition, or deal damage, there just aren't many/any reasons to spam enchantments. The current set-up allows enchantments to be removed with several skills, so if you want to remove/reapply an enchantment, you can.

I just don't understand what the problem you have with it is.

As far as your comment on synergy with secondaries, I'm not sure you know HOW to play Dervish now. There are a LOT of good synergies available for a Dervish. Warrior has some nice melee attacks that fit in nicely with a Scythe. Ranger has some spirits and preparations that can fit nicely with a Dervish. Ritualist has weapon spells that fit well with a Scythe. Paragon has some shouts that can boost your Scythe damage. Elementalist has some enchantments to provide defense, speed, or another source of damage. And I'm just tipping the iceberg on possibilities with secondaries. I could go into things like a D/N running Orders, but that isn't 'how a Dervish is supposed to be played'.

Scythe O F Glory · Sep 19, 2009, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Dervishes are not fine. Why in hell would you play a dervish over a Sin or a Warrior? Those of you who say "you need to learn how to play a dervish", Well, you have obviously never tried a Critscythe or a WE scythe, and should therefore learn to play Guild Wars. Also, try casting your 1 second enchantments next to a kiting monk in PvP, and see how that turns out.

The fact is, there is absolutely no reason to use Mysticism besides the avatars, which happen to suck. It gives shitty energy management because nobody actually takes advantage of enchantment spamming, which also happens to suck. Typed damage (earth and cold specifically) also happens to suck in HM.

reaper with no name · Sep 21, 2009, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Huh? There are only 4 conditions that provide degen. Bleeding, Poison, Disease, and Burning. Dervish can only supply 2 of those. Cripple, Weakness, Blind, Daze, Cracked Armor, and Deep Wound fill in the rest of the conditions availble. Other than the 2 I already mentioned, Dervish can supply all conditions but Cracked Armor and Daze. But I still don't see any skills that SHOULD be spammed that are enchantments for a Dervish. Whether it is to supply a condition, or deal damage, there just aren't many/any reasons to spam enchantments. The current set-up allows enchantments to be removed with several skills, so if you want to remove/reapply an enchantment, you can.

I just don't understand what the problem you have with it is.

As far as your comment on synergy with secondaries, I'm not sure you know HOW to play Dervish now. There are a LOT of good synergies available for a Dervish. Warrior has some nice melee attacks that fit in nicely with a Scythe. Ranger has some spirits and preparations that can fit nicely with a Dervish. Ritualist has weapon spells that fit well with a Scythe. Paragon has some shouts that can boost your Scythe damage. Elementalist has some enchantments to provide defense, speed, or another source of damage. And I'm just tipping the iceberg on possibilities with secondaries. I could go into things like a D/N running Orders, but that isn't 'how a Dervish is supposed to be played'.

Weakness and Blindness are meaningless though when there's SY! around. Deep Wound also ends up translating to damage. But yes, I agree that there isn't a reason to spam any of those conditions with enchantments.

There's no point in a dervish taking stuff from a warrior or assassin, because the W/D and A/D do it better.

Most of the support stuff is better done by, well, a support class.

Orders dervishes are an exception.

One more interesting thing to note: According to the new Kill Ten Rats interview, dervishes are indeed meant for melee AoE. Yet, they are subpar at it. This would fix that. Just one more thing to consider.

Kattar · Sep 21, 2009, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

dervishes are indeed meant for melee AoE

I think that's meant to be accomplished by the scythe being able to hit multiple opponents. I wouldn't read anything else into that interview other than that.

MagmaRed · Sep 21, 2009, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

One more interesting thing to note: According to the new Kill Ten Rats interview, dervishes are indeed meant for melee AoE. Yet, they are subpar at it. This would fix that. Just one more thing to consider.

Outside of the scythe hitting multiple targets, the Dervish is a melee AoE character. How many of their enchantments provide AoE damage/conditions? Rough count is somewhere between 15 and 20. What I don't see a need for, however, is SPAMMING those enchantments. They do their job, and spamming them doesn't do anything outside of drain energy or create an overpowered build.

What enchantments do you think need to be spammed? Why do you think they need to be spammed?